I got to sit down for an “interview” with Ken Rockwell and talk about RAW vs JPEG. Well not exactly, I am still waiting on a response from Ken to have an open minded discussion about RAW and JPEG and get his take.
I will be adding all videos to this post from this interview. Please click MORE to see the past videos (below the current video player)
Final video in the RAW vs JPEG vs Ken series
#8 “Raw file wont always be able to be opened”
#6 “You can only correct up to a half a stop”
#7 You need dedicated software to correct the raw files”
#5 “I’ve shot RAW and the pictures look BLAH!!!”
#4 “RAW files take too long to process”
#3 “RAW files are too big”
#2 “I shoot sports and I need to motor drive”
#1 “I get it right in the camera” PART 3
#1 “I get it right in the camera” PART 2
#1 “I get it right in the camera” PART 1
Nothing I love more than hearing I get it right in the camera!!
Well, that “tweakers” argument is really strange. I know some people myself, who say they do no post processing of their pictures, because they want to take pictures the “traditional” way. I think mostly the do not understand, that the camera is doing the post processing for them and they simply trust in the camera doing it the right way.
how can he get the perfect exposure when he shoots automatic? quote from his website “Today I shoot all my cameras on full automatic (matrix/evaluative metering, program exposure, and Auto ISO) and alter the lighten/darken (exposure compensation) control if needed.” and also mentions, “No longer does anyone need to worry about ISOs, apertures or shutter speeds; most cameras do this automatically.”
Right Right i forgot about the OLD “I shoot Auto ISO and its GREAT” Good call.
Great start! Let’s hope some hear the message and challenge themselves to better photography.
Jared, are you sure that you will be able to cover this all in a week?
HA who knows it will keep going im sure until i get my interview.
Would you crop if you were shooting medium format or large format? Did Ansel crop (I’m not being facetious, I actually don’t know)?
Anyway, I think your argument in favour of raw through analogy to the importance of the darkroom is strong. But, not everyone has to be a darkroom expert – there are lots of different aspects of photography you could concentrate on, and not everyone has to try to excel at all of them all the time.
Maybe we should think of shooting Jpeg analogously to shooting print film and just getting your exposures done at a lab, i.e. rather than printing them yourself. That’s what I’ve mostly done, and I’m happy with the results. And, if you aren’t a professional, that’s what matters.
But then, if you want to think just about professionals – it’s not true that all professionals are darkroom experts. For instance, photojournalists working on correspondance used to mail rolls of undeveloped film back to the head offices of the newspaper they worked for – they were pros, but they weren’t doing any darkroom work. Analogous to that today might be a photojournalist in a war zone shooting Jpeg because s/he has to be able to upload all his/her pictures over a lousy satellite internet connection, so they can be printed in an important newspaper/website.
But, on the other hand, insofar as landscape, architectural, and wedding photography is concerned, I think the argument for darkroom work/raw tweaking is extremely strong.
hey there, thanks for your feedback. I understand what you are saying about people having to upload images from remote areas so they are shooting jpeg. I wonder if they are shooting RAW as well and saving them for later. I personally like to have control over my files, as part of my personal style is how i develop my files. I don’t want to hand it over at this time to someone else to tweak without my personal touch.
I am not sure if adams cropped or didnt but he did shoot 8×10 view cameras which produced an 8×10 negative.
Thanks JP
Part 2 is better than even the first one. I can’t wait for the other videos. Keep them coming!!!
i think the hints and tips from the Fro are exactly what us amatures need to know! I’ve been on Ken Rockwells web page and sort of feel like the guys telling us info , but basically we’re really not worthy to lick his boots – so please donate. This raw v jpeg debate is over. if you ever shoot in raw and learn lightroom (3) control panel , your gonna feel like you’ve made a massive step forward in photography.
The Fro is basically saying there are NO Rules , it’s your art!! Pro guys are saying it’s rules and your wrong!
i’ve got my first paying job with my d3000 and i feel confident now because…..I SHOOT RAW
Don’t forget I am a pro but I am not saying there are rules you must follow, there are things i suggest you follow but thats up to each photographer and what they plan to get out of it.
That quote at the beginning of video 3, OUCH and from his own website! Shooting RAW is not just for pros, but also for anyone that is serious in producing good photos. When I shot JPEG, it was OK, but now I am able to bring much more out using RAW. Keep the videos coming.
Jared,
Just want to say in response to video three, that I am a pro motorsports photographer and I shoot everything in RAW, I have also run into those “pros” that judge you for shooting in RAW and I have found it best to just ignore them and go on doing your work, because at the end of the day the consumer (or company you are doing the work for) will choose the best product and they don’t care how it was captured.
Just for the hell of it and to prove something to someone, one day I shot an events practice in JPG, lets just say that I will never do that again.. It took me twice as long when I got home to do my edits, and the final product just wasn’t up to par.
I did spend a little bit of time shooting RAW plus JPEG so I can bring you both examples side by side this week. I hate even having to look at the JPEGS but I will for science.
This is awesome work. I’m learning a lot. Looking forward to more videos.
“Its not the process, but the end result that matters”
Jpeg, raw, auto, manual, up down, nikon, canon, film, digital, who cares?
Its not what others tell you to do its what you do, what works for you, what you like, or what you like to show others. Its art, we all have our own style, you cant judge what is right or wrong.
That is correct, I have preached that in the past as there are no definitives in photography and if something works for you than use it. Good points!!!
Some day Ken will come around and eat his words. After all I don’t know of any one that would list him as photographic expert.
Tristen Made a good point about quick internet via satellite and such, Personally, if i was doing that, I would shoot raw + jpeg . I get really sick of people who say analog is so much better to shoot, because to make a great photo all the pros did all in camera. I then explain that some of the greats like Ansel, would use very specific chemicals, paper, and processing to get a look from one of his negatives. They then go on to say things like, well there are pros who shoot jpeg so once your pro level, you get the results of a pro all in camera……blah blah blah. After seeing that quote, (I hadn’t read that before) I basically lost all of what tiny amount of respect i had for the guy
Sorry, left one thing out by mistake, i do believe in get as much right as you can and go for the BEST image you can produce in camera, and get the shot right………while shooting RAW and then do post work with raw =^____^=
Jared,
Until I came across your videos on youtube and then ended up here on your site I had always shot in jpeg just beacause I truly didn’t know what RAW was or what it did. So for the past couple years as I’ve work on my high school yearbook I only shot in jpeg, but for the past two weeks after watching your videos and I’ve made the switch to RAW, and it was in my opinion a huge step towards becoming a far better photographer. Even though it does take more time to process my photos now, I’ve ended up with BY FAR better results. I agree with you, shooting in RAW doesn’t make you a “tweaker” or an amateur as the “pros” said to the guy taking photos of the motor sports. If taking the time to get it right in the camera first and then to go back later and process our photos to make them masterpieces makes us “tweakers” then I’m fine with that because at the end of the day us “tweakers” have a far better end result.
And just putting it out there I had never heard of the Rockwell guy til recently and his comments on the d3000 was very insulting to me! I love my d3000 and I think for what I have I take some rather good photos! Sorry so long just had to put my two cents in.
I’d like to think information is king, and thus RAW is king.
But In the end you would save your Tweaked Raw file into something more digestible right?
Jared…. thanks again! Telling everyone that shooting RAW is like having a negative is as clear as I think anyone can understand. I’ve begun tweaking my photos and to have the most versatility in adjusting the images has me sold. To me JPEG shooting is for those who don’t know.
Hi Jerad,
If we are talking about sport or action photography, can you explain a little bit about how is it effecting if at all the frame per second rate when shoting raw or jpeg? is it a factor when shooting sport?
Love your videos
Ori
When shooting sports with say a d700 or d3 or d3s you can shoot 14 bit raw at 9 frames a second and get about 36 shots before the buffer is full. Even if I snap off a lot of pictures i have extreme 3 sandisk cards loaded into the camera that get written to very fast. These are not even the fastest cards on the market anymore and they write extremely fast. If you have a d300 or d300s you can shoot in 12 bit RAW at what is it, 6 frames a second and 8 frames a second with the booster? As you go into the lower cameras that shoot 5 frames a second and less your not going to out run the buffer unless you are just flat out trying to.
All my shooting frineds always will say “Well, I shoot Jpeg is almost as good as RAW” Most of them don’t even boather to do any tweak at all, just produce a 1000′s of images and select the “nice one”. I even introduce the LR for all of them and some of them corect Jpeg in Picassa wich is bollocks for people doing pay job. However, the most of all is that the clients like the final image very much but it si not about it it’s about the power of the TWEAK after all, so bid it! I had even been on wedding where layde pro-photographer was shooting with digital compact camrea all wedding for £350 lol! and they like it. Even if you have to upload your images from remote area and have no possibility to convert RAW to final Jpeg we can forgive them but, ther is always a way to do it even in SPACE! This subject RAW vs JPEG is very extensive and we can talk a river about it :], cheers!
I shoot Raw and I love Raw (hell, I even bought the awesome t-shirt!).
I don’t really understand why some Pros dis people for taking in Raw and even with that said, I would fully respect people who take jpeg. It’s just your style.
Well, I personally think being able to get “perfect” exposure in jpeg will let you understand lighting/exposure better and by getting the right exposure in the first place will give you “better/less noise” results when tweaking in post. I always tweak my photos in Lightroom and enjoy doing that but many times find that I get better results for photos that already look good right out of the camera:)
have you tried contacting ken? i would love to hear a debate about this. you should forward these videos to him and im sure if he dont give you the debate dom bower will.
Andrew, just curious why Ken was against the Nikon d3000? i hadn’t read about it so just curious. I have a good friend who shoots with a Rebel xs….entry level dslr, and has had some amazing shots with it. although comparing bodies and lenses , is a whole subject.
Jared this series is getting better by the installment. Have an ice cream on us! Good job.
Charlie,
You may want to see exactly what he says here: http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d3000.htm Now you know why his opinions are being refuted here.
He is the reason I bought the d3000!!! I have shot it RAW at 1600 and have gotten great results. Again put the 35 1.8 or anything better on it and you will be fine. Oh yea, don’t crop and shoot RAW.
I shoot RAW! Awesome video. One of my biggest issues with the JPEG format is the destructive nature of the compression. So even if you are the type of person that could get the “perfect” picture without any post-processing (love the darkroom analogy), the compression destroys your image permanently. PNG would be far better, but I guess it is not the most suitable for print images.
Anthony,
Thanks for putting up the link to the d3000 article.
Every time i read it I get pissed off hahah.
Actually this video (#5) has some of the most compelling arguments to be shooting RAW. Keep it coming.
Jared is right he did convert me to RAW!!! luckyly i had not had the camera long before watching the videos so did not have many images.Until Jared started doing these videos there was nothing for us amatuers to get any info from.The thing with the pros suprized me that they hated it so much.I always thought that every pro shot in RAW.One of them that shoots for a popular motorsports mag(will not mension his name he was a little aragant) said that why invest in a lens like the one i was using then go and spoil it buy using RAW.He said most people that use RAW/lightroom have no skill in photography and no skill in setting up a camera he said it should be a shoot and send!!.He said that most of the pros use the shoot and send method because you havent got the time to post process and you cant send big files so you have to get it right in the camera.I ask him what settings i should use he said that maybe i should have invested in a smaller lens and some photographic lessons.(and that i had all the gear with no idea)I lost a little bit of confidence after that meeting thinking that maybe photography was not for me.That was until i talked to Jared i had some issues with the shutter speed and metering that Jared sorted in a 10min skype call.It took me a lot to contact him because i always thought that why would he want to talk to me im a nobody.In my eyes to take the time to do what he is doing he is a true PRO!!!(CHEERS JARED!!)its a pitty that the SOME not all of the pros dont take a look at his videos…..they might learn somthing!!!!
Dear Jared Polin
my girlfriend has been shooting jpeg and cropping for a while and thanks to you she has finally decided switch to raw and try to stop cropping after many “discussions” about the subject, so i thank you jared polin of froknowsphoto.com
also these videos are top notch, keep them coming!
I’ve just discover your page today, and, as an amateur(I bought my Nikon D90 a year ago and never before have a camera)I understood long ago that you should shoot RAW, and its amazing, I guess you’re right when you say people are afraid to learn new things but, come on, it`s worth learning, thank you Jared
I think I need to get me one of those shirts!
When I got my first DSLR in 2007 I, like many, found my way to Mr. Rockwell’s site, and his RAW vs. Jpeg post. Fortunately I wasn’t eating or drinking anything, because had I been, when I got to the part where he mentions that he shoots only in Jpeg Basic… I would’ve spit all over my monitor. I realized right then that the man just doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
I started out with my D40 switching between RAW and Jpeg (I’ve never seen much point to shooting RAW+Jpeg), depending on the situation. Family gathering, snap shot fest, holidays? Jpeg is probably just fine. Everything else? RAW. Most definitely.
That worked out great for a few months until I completely botched a days worth of shots because I forgot to switch back to RAW. With storage as ridiculously cheap as it is, I ditched Jpeg entirely.
I’ve used both Lightroom and Aperture since their early versions all the way to their latest versions, but currently using Aperture. In both programs, I’ve set up a simple preset that just tweaks contrast and saturation a little bit. I’ve found it’s pretty close to the Normal color setting on Nikon cameras. I apply that preset during import of all photos, so even the quick snap shots that I may want to share with friends/family as soon as possible, they’re ready to email or send off to Picasa or Flickr without me having to do any processing. For the rest, I’ve got a good starting point, ready to work some magic.
@Astro Weasel: If I’m remembering correctly, PNG doesn’t support color/print profiles, so there’s no way for a photographer to have a reasonable assurance that the printed image will look like what they’ve perfected on their computer. Also full color PNG typically has much larger file sizes than Jpeg, making the size difference between them and just using RAW all that much more negligible.
Hey Fro,
thx for the good points so far, but what didn’t convince me 100% yet is the point you made in video 4 regarding sports photography and frame rate. I just tested my D300 to compare the frame rates of 14 bit raw and JPGs. I used a SanDisk Extreme IV 16 GB CF card for the test, set everything to manual and had my battery grip attached. I got 8 fps for JPGs in basic and S with a buffer capacity of about 25 pictures, 6,5 fps for JPGs in fine and L with a filled buffer after 13 frames. Raws compressed losslessly @ 14 bit are recorded at less than 3 fps with a buffer of 20 frames.
Unfortunately, I am not one of those lucky bastards to own a D3s and therefore I can’t tell if the 9 fps it does are likewise possible for raws and for jpgs, but I guess it is only achieved with JPGs. And that is exactly the problem that you didn’t address the right way: shooting at 8 or 9 fps doesn’t simply mean to capture a heckload of photos which are mostly being sorted out. Of course you still just shoot in bursts of 3 to 4 to maybe 6 pictures and don’t hold down the shutter for minutes BUT you shoot at a higher frame rate. As you shoot at 3 fps you can capture the boarder before the jump, maybe once in the air and after the landing, whereas with 8 or more fps you are able to capture just “the moment”, which means the time of grabbing the board in the air or the concentrated look on the face during the landing, where the odds are way higher that you might simply miss it as you shoot at lower frame rates.
This is the only application I have at the moment for shooting not in raw, which might be just a downside of my D300, since I don’t know about the fps with raw files of the “pro” cameras. Of course, if my camera would do the same rate with raw files, I would definitely SHOOT RAW
14 bit raw captures 1 fps in the d300!!! But there is nothing wrong with putting it in 12 bit, in 12 bit RAW it will shoot your 8 fps without a problem. Remember that the jpegs will not be 14 bit raw, so you now can shoot raw the whole time without an issue.
@Jay: Would you be willing to share the preset that you have made and how you made it? I’m new to Aperture 3 and at the moment I’m processing every file by hand.. would be great if I could automate the process somehow . . .
Here is the bottom line (to me). RAW files give you somewhere from 10-14 bits of color information per pixel whereas JPEG offers, at most, 8 bits. But even that isn’t the whole story. 8 bits can represent 2 to the 8th power values (remember, more values = more colors).
A 14 bit RAW file in contrast has 2 to the 14th power values.
2^8 = 256 values JPEG
2^14 = 16384 values RAW
So, why would I ever use an expensive DSLR and keep only 256 values per pixel when I can keep 16,384?
Using JPEG is like throwing away 98.43% of the image!
A good explanation. BTW, a side question, is Ken’s head getting bigger on these videos?
Pentium II Dual Core processor
))
Ha, thats a mistake come to think of it, its a duel core processor a core duo not even the core2 duo oppps.
When I first starting looking into getting my first camera, I, like most, searched on the internet for more information on what to buy, how to shoot etc and I remember seeing Ken Rockwell’s name pop up quite a bit. I went to his site(since he popped up in google search),read very little and moved on in my quest for finding the perfect camera but always had the thought in the back of my mind, “Ken Rockwell must be some famous photog, guru, mentor when it comes to photography..I will revisit and read some of his work someday”. BUT now that I have watched 6 interviews with Ken I am kind of shocked that he is/was some authority on photography. I am a newb when it comes to photog but if there is one thing I learned, RAW is better.
I just can’t believe he said those things that you quoted and I cannot believe people agree with him.
Insane in the membrane!
Hi Fro, i got question for you.
If I shoot RAW, the settings i use on my camera will be ingnored? I mean, if i adjust white balance, sharpness, saturation, etc, they wont be applied to the photo?
Hey there, the adjustments you make in camera will be ignored when you bring it into lightroom, they are in there but they are not used. If you were to use nikon capture to open the files they would than be used as you took them. I have to check in on canon though and how their software works but same thing should apply if you bring a canon file into LR.
I thought that LR used the white balance settings for the RAW file.
It does, RAW does keep the white balance setting that you had in the camera.
@Sascha: Next time you’re at an event, count out how long someone is in the air after a jump. Typically 2-3 seconds for low jumps, and more for higher jumps. 3FPS is actually quite decent. I’ve shot NASCAR events with the cars moving ~190MPH with my D80, and I’ve not found 3FPS to be limiting. I’ve shot flocks of gulls taking off and landing around a pond, and can easily capture the compression, and unfurling of the wings, the take off, and several shots flapping the wings.
My problem is the D80 only has a 9 frame buffer when shooting RAW, and I’ve run into that several times. I usually only burst 3-4 shots at a time, if I’m bursting, so for now the 9 frame buffer hasn’t been enough of a hinderance to me to consider switching to Jpeg for a 20 frame buffer.
@Ben: Absolutely! I’m actually also going to put together some color mode presets. Probably the only time I can see a reason to shoot RAW+Jpeg so I can get a side by side and make sure my RAW processing matches the Jpeg. At least Nikon color presets (Normal, Vivid, Vivid+, etc). I’ll have to leave it up to a Canon shooter to do their settings
I’m in the process of setting up a new computer and moving my photos and Aperture library. Maybe by this weekend, I should have enough set up that I can get that preset exported, and I’ll post it on Presetpond or someplace like that.
Jared-
Canon Digital Photo Pro uses all settings (including Picture Style) that are in force in the camera at the time. The beauty of RAW is that these settings can be revised at any time. This includes:
+/- 2 stops exposure compensation
White Balance
Picture Style
Contrast
Sharpening
Noise Reduction
Highlight Tone Priority
Auto-Lighting Optimizer
Peripheral Illumination Correction
So with RAW you have A LOT of freedom in the Canon system to adjust your image. The file is your negative, the computer is your enlarger. Dodge and burn at will!
Thank you for answering, i was looking for your number to call you to ask about that.
I am definitely looking forward to the upcoming side by side comparison video. If anything can totally dispel this JPEG only nonsense, that will. This is an excellent series that I am sure will be teaching folks for a long time to come. BTW, I have been shooting RAW now for three years and never have looked back or regretted the move.
An excellent series that brings up the voice of reason. Hopefully knowing all the work and effort that goes into a series like this, you could do a dedicated week like this a few times a year. I do not know what your site’s hits have been like this week, but I am sure you have drawn many over to view this and hopefully learn more than what they had before the series. Great job and keep up the passion!
@Jay – Thanks Jay, looking forward to it. Please let me know once its up
Raw Vs Jpg.
Jpgs, when continuously saved lose quality and size. Years ago i had issues with that and there is no coming back from that. I want to start with every detail from an image and work down from that. Because I never want to miss a shot due to lighting changes, quality, sharpness and editable options – I shoot Raw. Why wouldn’t a photographer?
Thanks for the videos!
http://www.nathancotephotography.com <– Its working for me.
This has been great
I’m still shooting jpeg [ sorry 
] BUT I will change over . What you have said Jared makes great sense .
I appreciate the comments that Anthony has been making about the size of your friend’s head
I love the way it vanished in #7 
On a more serious note – thanks again – I’m learning a lot from you.
Now to go and look at the side by side RAW and JPEG shots
great to hear!!!
did you just go bob ross on our asses??
RAW , RAW , RAW .Awesome job Jared. Im so converted , im gonna start eating RAW too! An egg anyone?
“You can only correct a half stop”
What do you mean you don’t know what he’s getting at. He clearly expresses his position here:
“Don’t pay too much attention to sales demos showing how you can restore details in highlights for a shot that was overexposed by a critical half stop.”
Your interpretation of this claim is embarrassing – the claim is not about being able to bring back an under exposed file. You can also lighten under exposed files in JPEG – maybe it looks better with the Raw file, but you can’t say this is exclusively a property of RAW files.
I have shown in the examples the power of bringing back the RAW file into a usable image over the same exact jpeg. The jpeg files are not usable when you are way off but the same raw files clearly are. I think my interpretation of that claim is very reasonable and accurate and I supply examples to back that up.
Your examples of bringing back over exposed files do demonstrate that RAW has a greater ability to bring back highlights. That’s exactly what KR said.
What you need to show is that the difference is more than a 1/2 stop. So, shoot a raw file 1 full stop over exposed, and show how it can be more effectively pulled back than a JPEG only 1/2 stop over exposed. If the highlights in the raw are better than the JPEG, then you’ll have shown that more than 1/2 stop of extra highlight detail are retained in the raw file.
As for the way you pulled out lowlights (is that the opposite of highlights?) in under exposed pictures, your examples are skewed by all the in-camera sharpening you had the camera apply to the JPEG (+9? Who uses that?).
Jared, thank you, thank you, thank you. You are my hero today! I had an unexpected photo op of my 1 year old niece in the pool. With no time to plan, I just grabbed my camera and started shooting. (no time for pause with toddlers!) I got some great shots of her doing some “firsts”, but when I reviewed them in camera, I realized that the white balance was WAY off and the exposure was terrible on quite a few due to me running in and out of bright sunlight with no time to change anything. I was crushed until I remembered that I had been fiddling with settings after watching your last interview with Mr. Rockwell. I had it on RAW + jpeg!! I was able to save every priceless shot. Baby’s firsts are one time events and I got these! I am a believer and can now say that I SHOOT RAW. Thank you for taking the time to do the video series.
@Ben: and anyone else interested, of course (and using Aperture 3.x), here’s that contrast/saturation boost preset I use during import: http://presetpond.com/presets/aperture/raw-boost/
Hey guys, keep in mind each image tends to be different so general import settings for some images will work very well and its good to use and others will just be far off. I personally like to tweak each and every file and sync only the files that are very similar.
Thanks JAY
Aww, I guess my last response didn’t pass moderation with the direct photo links. Bummer. Normally my comments have been going straight through after initial moderation, but I posted from work earlier today and I guess the different IP address flagged me for moderation again.
@Tristan: The majority of my last response was to you, and I was linking to example photos from my blog showing 2 stop RAW recovery vs. the same recovery attempt (and failure) with Jpeg. One even started out looking like a solid black rectangle due to -5ev, 100ISO, and 200mm focal length (300mm 35mm equivalent).
If you’re interested in seeing just how far you can go in recovering RAW, that you absolutely cannot do with Jpeg, click my name and look at the pictures in my own RAW vs. Jpeg blog post.
@Jared: Most definitely agreed. The preset really just takes away the flat/dullness you get from unprocessed RAW. Just a tiny bit of an S contrast curve, and .1 saturation, .05 vibrancy. Before curves I was doing .05 contrast instead, now I leave that unmodified. I like curves for contrast much more than the actual contrast slider, they tend to avoid clipping the highlights/shadows as long as you don’t go too far with them.
Used on import the preset’s purpose is to aid in your sorting/picking stage, before you get to actually processing individual images further. Definitely by no means meant to be a one stop “set it and you’re done” thing
Hey your buddy Ken was interviewed by Marc Silber, so he is alive and well. What a hack…
I want to post that video lol!!!
hey mate, absolutely hilarious videos …thankyou for saying what I was already thinking.
I was gobsmacked at the way KR views the RAW vs JPEG topic … quite simply, he’s got it wrong.
Cheers
brad.
i dont care if you guys shoot in raw or jpeg. it’s about Creativity.